http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/hubs-internal.html#rohloffDate: Sat, 15 Jul 2000
List-Id: Recumbent Human-Powered Trikes <trikes.ihpva.org>
My new Greenspeed GTS with Rohloff hub:
In one sentence, I love it.
I have had it for about six weeks now. I have climbed steep mountain roads and done long distances, including 140 miles in one day, my record. I love the 30 degree seat angle. I use a pillow on long climbs, and Ian Sims is making me a neck rest.
The gearing on this trike was set up for my needs: I am a 51-year-old woman living in a very hilly/mountainous area with rough roads, some dirt. With my GTS I can do it all. In addition to the Rohloff, I have 39-53-63 chainrings. I do 95% of my riding on the 53T ring, using the 39T for very steep hills only. I have never used the 63T ring, as I don’t pedal down hills - I brake. The 53T has a gear inch range of 18” - 95”. The 39T gives me three extra gears; the lowest is 13”. The 63T ring gives me two extra gears; the highest is 113”. I have Tioga Comp Pool tires, which have a diameter of 19.5”.
This gearing is perfect for my terrain. If I lived in the flatlands, the Rohloff would probably be a waste of money. But since I am constantly shifting, it’s great having 14 gears all in a line, evenly spaced. I love being able to downshift while stopped, as I do hill starts all the time. The only improvement I would suggest for the Rohloff is a longer twist portion, since the twister is upside down on under seat steering. If Rohloff does come out with one, I will order it. I have a “Half-Pipe” twist shifter for the front derailleur, and it is more ergonomic. But I rarely use it, except for very steep hills.
Originally I had asked for a Rohloff and a Schlumpf MD Type II, but after several emails it became clear that it would be better for me to use the Rohloff and the 39-53-63 chainrings. I’m glad I did. I certainly don’t need any higher gears, which the Schlumpf would have given me, and I do use the 13” bottom gear with the 39T chainring. The smallest chainring I could have used with a Schlumpf would be 42T, so my lowest gear would have been slightly higher. And the range of the 53T ring covers almost all my riding, so I only have to shift the Rohloff. With the Schlumpf, I would have been shifting between ranges more often.
I have Hayes disc brakes, which are great because they require very little hand strength. I don’t race, so I don’t break speed records, but it’s nice to have really good brakes when going down steep mountain roads, swerving around potholes. I can’t compare them to drum brakes, since this is my first trike.
I ordered the GTS through Zach Kaplan because I wanted to have a US dealer in case I had problems with the Rohloff. I chose Zach because I had read his GTS review in RCN. I have never met Zach, nor have I spoken with him - but have had countless emails from him about every detail on my trike. This has been the best experience buying a bike, because Zach LISTENED, especially when I told him I live in the hills. Flatlanders just don’t understand about hills, but Zach does. And people have different needs. Zach gets A+++ in my books! I can’t see how he makes any money off people like me who ask so many questions, but I am grateful, because now I have the perfect trike. Thanks, Zach! And thanks, Ian!
Zach kindly test rode my GTS on the Davis Double before shipping it to me, as I wanted him to make sure the Rohloff worked OK. If anyone wants to know how my GTS compares to a stock GTS, it would be better to ask Zach, as I have never seen another GTS - I ordered mine sight unseen.
I love it.
JW Stephens
Wed, 17 Nov 1999
I have adapted a Speedhub 500/14 to my Trice. It works pretty darn slick. Still working out a few bugs and getting it dialed in. (The wheel went back to Rohloff USA for the bolt torque problem I reported to the list a month ago. Now it is returned to Rohloff for a leaky seal problem and bad shifting into 10th gear. The leak, I understand from Zach Kaplan, was a problem of early production that has now been fixed.) By dialed in I am referring to setting everything for a constant, optimal chainline, replacing missing chainline pulleys, and settling upon a comfortable chainring. I just took delivery of a Dura Ace double, with 180mm arms and 53t chainring that I am hoping will be just what the doctor ordered.
JW Stephens
Sat, 11 Dec 1999
Note that there is a PDF of the Workshop manual for the Speedhub 500/14 in the Manuals section of the site. Should answer some questions about what is involved in installing the beast and keeping it fed and happy.
I'm checking it out myself ... right now.
Ian Sims @ GREENSPEED
Sun, 12 Dec 1999
The other little "problem" with the Rohloff is that it only comes with 32 spoke holes, instead of the more normal 36 holes for 20" rims.
So I got Velocity to drill me a batch of Aeroheat AT rims with 32 holes, AND the holes angled to match up with the large hub diameter, so that the spokes will not have to bend at the nipple, which prevents them from being properly tensioned. I also got some drilled on the angle in 36 holes, so they can be used with the Sachs drum brake hubs, with have a 90mm pcd. The Rolhoff is 100mm. We have these rims available at the normal prices.
I found using the Type II mountain drive with the Rohloff gave me a gear range from 14 inches in bottom to 124 in top, with the standard 16t rear cog, and a 42t chain ring.
The gear ratios are:-
1.467
1.292
1.135
1.000
0.881
0.774
0.682
0.600
0.528
0.464
0.409
0.360
0.316
0.279
Thus the most efficient direct drive occurs at 51 inches (direct m-d) and 84 inches (m-d overdrive). Low range is 14 to 75, and high is 24 to 124.
Using just the Rohloff with a say a 57t chain ring would give you 19 to 102. However the best thing about the Rohloff ratios is the even spread, giving you much more even jumps in percentage terms than is possible with derailleur systems, e.g.:-
102
90
79
69
61
54
47
42
37
32
28
25
22
19
And without have to jump back and forward between front and back, changing with just one click of the 14 speed twist grip with each change....
Zach Kaplan Cycles zakaplan@earthlink.net
Sun, 12 Dec 1999
The Mountain Drive and Speedhub complement each other nicely. With a Type 1 Mountain Drive and 11-34 cassette on a plain rear hub one only shifts into the underdrive on the Mountain Drive when encountering steeper climbs and then shifts back to direct drive when it levels out. With a Type 2 Mountain Drive and a Speedhub one only shifts into overdrive at higher speeds such as riding on the flats with a tailwind or descents. I would think the Type 2-Speedhub combination would be overall more efficient than a Type 1-plain hub combination because the Mountain Drive is taking a 5% efficiency loss when in the indirect gear and more time is spent climbing than descending. Rohloff recently had some efficiency tests done and the Speedhub was found to be more efficient than a derailer system in certain gears (probably due to extreme chain angle on an upright bike) and up to 2.5% less efficient in its least efficient gears which are 1st, 3rd and 7th gears where the most gears are engaged.
>Speaking of which, is it pretty easy to shift the Mountain Drive while clipped in? I tried to simulate it with my SPD clipless and it didn't appear that easy to reach the crank with my heel. I have not ridden a Mountain Drive with clipless.
I can't say how it would be with SPD pedals but with high float pedals like Bebops and Speedplays it is easy to shift the Mountain Drive while clipped in. I suspect with limited float pedals like SPDs the ease of shifting the Mountain Drive will depend on how your cleats are positioned. If biased for a heals in pedalling style it would probably be easy and if positioned for straight ahead feet it would probably be difficult. Personally my knees have no tolerance for limited float systems like SPDs so I switched to pedals with lots of free float in 1993.
Ian Sims @ GREENSPEED
Mon, 13 Dec 1999
The lowest recommended ratio is 38/16, which is 38/16*0.279*19.5 = 13" with a 20" x 1.75" drive wheel.
Ian Sims @ GREENSPEED
Sun, 19 Dec 1999
One way of giving you chain adjustment with a geared hub and no rear derailleur or tensioner, is the move the rear wheel in horizontal dropouts.
While these type of dropouts may not give strong enough location for you liking, there are various forms of locking available, or you could choose the nutted Rohloff (touring version).
I also have drawings from Rohloff of some special OEM vertical dropouts, having the long LH slot to engage the OEM torque end plate, which removes the need for the long after market torque stay and bracket.
They also have a slotted keyway arrangement to permit about 1/2" of adjustment, with two clamping screws on each side. The bare dropout width would need to be 149mm, to give the required 135 with the movable plates on the inside. The range of adjustment is 14mm, and would be accessible with the hub/wheel in place as far as I can see.
I don't know if Rolhoff are going to make these dropouts - they are not something that is easy to make without a CNC mill.......
Personally I think the "track" dropouts are a neater and cleaner way to go.....
JW Stephens
Sat, 12 Feb 2000
Here's the poop from Rohloff: The gear range is 526%. The Speedhub delivers with a 16t cog and you need to use at least 2.4x that many teeth on the front chainring (39t!) to stay within the 250Nm crank torque limit. The gear ratios are .279, .316, .36, .409, .464, .528, .6, .628, .774, .881, 1, 1.135, 1.292, and 1.467, even steps of 13.6%. Development is figured E=D*(C/S)*U, with D=wheel circumfrence, C=teeth on chainring, S=sprocket teeth, and U=internal gear ratios. I believe that my development works out to about 1.9m - 10m / crank rev.
Ian Sims @ GREENSPEED
Fri, 5 May 2000
We have built a number of GTRs with the Rohloff hub, and had one on display for road testing at the World HPV Championships at Interlaken, Switzerland, last year.
I think it's best if the installation is done at building stage, as it's easier to use the OEM model without the long torque arm, and much easier to weld on fittings for the gear cable(s), which goes from the twist grip to the hub and *back again*. The Aftermarket cable adjustment fittings are designed to fit onto a brake cantilever boss, which does not exist on our trikes......
To accommodate the OEM model it is necessary to have a longer than normal dropout on the LHS to engage the torque reaction block on the hub end plate. Personally, I don't think the range of the hub is enough for recumbents, and so far we have only fitted it with the Schlumpf mountain-drive, which makes it a little expensive, but does eliminate derailleurs and chain misalignment at both ends of the drive train.
I did not notice any difference in performance between it and the SRAM/Shimano 3x7x3 system we normally use on our GTRs.
I think the main advantages are the reduction in the number of shifters you need to use (i.e. more convenient), the fact that you have more even jumps in your gears, and the fact that all the working bits are sealed in an oil bath, so that wear and adjustment requirements should be less.
We have had no complaints from customers about the hub, and I found the twist grip shifter worked O.K., i.e. I was not aware of any extra effort required to shift it over the bar end shifters we normally use.
The only "fault" I could find was it was a little noisier than I would have expected, rather like noisy guide pulley. It was louder in the lower gears, but not loud enough cause me any distraction.
I believe it's certainly by far the best hub gear on the market, but I think it's really a personal choice in the drive train.............
Scott Talkington
Sat, 15 Apr 2000
Any comments on a dropout/mount that avoids installing the torque arm?
If you check Rohloff's website under "manual" there are some files delineating their OEM dropout/mount. I have some that Rohloff sent that I can forward to you as well. (If you're using a front derailleur, then the OEM, which eliminates the tensioner as well as the torque arm, would not be an advantage, though it will have the engineering drawings for the torque arm side.) Basically the chainstay part (that's what I'm calling the part that's permanently attached to the bike) is a plate with two slots. Distance between the plates is wider than normal to accommodate the dropouts that are bolted into the slots on the inside so that they slide. You therefore adjust the position of the entire QR dropout to tension the chain, instead of the wheel axle, and can continue to use the QR with a quasi-"fixed gear." Pretty neat. Again, if this doesn't make sense I have the specs. The angles or for an MTB, of course, but easily modifiable.
BTW, I'm really glad to see you're having good luck with the Rohloff. I've been having shifting problems (it unpredictably drops into a 15th "neutral" gear), though Rohloff has been very responsive about fixing the problem...to the point of sending me a "loaner" wheel until they can replace my hub entirely.
Ian Sims @ GREENSPEED
Sun, 16 Apr 2000
>Any comments on a dropout/mount that avoids installing the torque arm?
We just modify the LH dropout to accept the OEM hub, giving a lighter and neater installation.
Pat Franz @ TerraCycle, Inc.
Sun, 16 Apr 2000
The next two bikes in my queue are Rohloff equipped. Since I make my own dropouts, I've had to design new ones for the Rohloff hub.
You can get suggested dropout drawings from Rohloff, but as someone else said, they are for mountain bikes. They are also in AutoCad format.
The pertinent information you'll need to design your own dropouts is:
Dropout Width: 10mm
Slot Length: 37mm (from opening to the inside stop; 32mm from opening to axle center)
I'm emailing from home this evening, so I don't know the actual reaction torque numbers, but they are pretty high (limited only by tire traction). The rearward part of the dropout needs to be pretty beefy.
Note that this is only on the left side; the right side can be normal.In fact, if you are using the deraileur-like chain tensioner that comes with the hub, a standard right dropout with a deraileur hanger is what you'd want.
Also, the "OEM Torque Plate" that couples the reaction torque from the hub to the dropout is bolted to the hub with 12 bolts. The shift cable entry/exit points are attached to the same part of the hub, so this means you can point the shift cable entry/exits relative to the torque plate at 30 degree increments. To get the cables pointed in exactly the right direction, you'll need to adjust the angle of the dropout slot.
I'm making fixed dropouts out of 304 stainless, 3/16" (4.76mm) on the right side and 1/4" (6.35mm) on the left side. I designed a set with sliding dropouts as well, but decided not to use them because the brake pad travel would be too close to the V brake limits (with the brakes on 37 degree seatstays). One bike is going to use a tandem eccentric (Bushnell expanding type) in combination with the sliding boom to control chain tension, and the other is going to use the Rohloff tensioner.
I, too, am very eager for a Rohloff test ride!
Peter Marshall
Tue, 11 Jan 2000
Would it be possible, at least in principle, to use barends for shifting and how could that be done?
Not possible with the Rohloff, I fear. It is operated by twin cables actuated by a single twist-grip control.
I too much prefer bar-ends on a trike, but I think I could live with a twist-grip for the sake of 14 evenly spaced gears.
JW Stephens
Sat, 11 Dec 1999
Is there regular maintenance required? Is the hub completely sealed?
The hub runs in a bath of 30ml of Oil of Rohloff. The viscosity of the oil needs to be changed with the weather. I could find no stated service interval. When you change the oil you fill the hub with a rinsing oil, drain and refill with new oil. Easy.
From: Franny Yerkes
NW Connecticut, USA Date: Sun, 19 Nov 2000
Subject: [trikes] Rohloff hub
List-Id: Recumbent Human-Powered Trikes <trikes.ihpva.org>
As I have mentioned in a previous post, I have a Rohloff hub and 39-53-63T chainrings on my Greenspeed GTS, and I love it. In fact, we have specified the identical gearing setup on the Greenspeed tandem which we have on order. The only problem I have had is leaking oil; my hub is an early one, and this problem has supposedly been corrected on later hubs. I will send my wheel back to have the hub replaced once the snow gets too deep to ride.
The advantage of having a triple chainring rather than a Mountain Drive Type II with the Rohloff (a Rohloff alone would not give a wide enough gear range for a trike), is that the jump between ranges is smaller. The increase factor for MD-II is 1.65, so if one had a 42T chainring, engaging the MD would be the equivalent of jumping to a 69T chainring, a large jump. The 1.65 factor cannot be changed. But with triple chainrings, the jumps between ranges can be smaller, which is better. In fact, I never use the 63T chainring because I don't pedal downhill, so the upper end of the equivalent 69T range of the MD would be useless to me. We live in a very hilly area. (I listed the gear inch ranges in my previous post.)
I tried a MD briefly, and for me it is easier to shift chainrings with a Halfpipe twistgrip and a derailleur than shift the MD with my heel. The 53T chainring covers most of my riding needs better than either of the 42/69T MD-II equivalent ranges would; if I'm doing lots of hills I usually stay on the 39T ring.
I really like having only two things to shift on my trike, having small jumps between gears, shifting as many gears as I want at once, shifting while stopped, etc. etc. The only improvement (other than the oil leak problem) I would suggest is a longer shifting mechanism so I don't have to drop my hand down to shift.
The Rohloff is certainly worth the money to me; it may not be worth it for someone else. It's so easy to use. And heck, aren't _I_ worth a Rohloff?
From: Bob
KnightDate: Wed, 20 Sep 2000
List-Id: Human Powered Vehicles Mailing List <hpv.ihpva.org>
I've got the Rohloff on my MTB, which is a '93 Carbon Cadex frame, the frame and the front hub being the only original parts which have stood the test of time. When I wore out the old 7 speed LX stuff, I was reluctant to follow the herd and go down the 8/9 speed upgrade route. This was in January of this year. I hunted around and finally found a Rohloff at Bikefix.
Generally I'm hugely impressed with the hub, The engineering is superb and the weight penalty is not as bad as reported, my MTB gained about 1/2 pound. The efficiency is excellent, some gears make a lot of noise, but do not appear to cause inefficiencies. I place the efficiency as very slightly lower than a *well* maintained deraileur system on the road and certainly more efficient than a mud clogged deraileur system offroad. This was my main reason for buying the hub. However given the spare cash I would certainly buy another to use only on the road.
I rode the hub with absolutely no problems for about 600 miles and then started to have a few problems. My hub is quite an early one (#1045) and started to leak small amounts of oil from the non drive side oil seal. After about 1000 miles this had become a flood and the hub would not contain any oil. This ruined a ride I did in July which was the Mont Ventoux stage of the Tour de France. We rode it two days before the tour went through. Anyway the oil poured out and went all over the rim and tire. Not really what you need on steep mountain roads...
I contacted Rohloff directly to ask about this. They told me to send the whole wheel back for warranty work. I was not looking foward to not being able to ride for weeks while the hub was away so I converted the bike to a single speed. I was pleasantly suprised to receive the wheel back from Germany in 6 days! The whole thing had obviously had a major overhaul with some new parts. New oil seals, the new ones are blue and are beefier than the old green ones. New cover screws, these are the torx type screw rather than hex headed and a new bit on the non drive side that contacts the oils seal, black round thing.
apparently this is a known problem with the first type (green) of oil seal used. I've now put another 3-400 miles on it since getting it back, and so far not a drop has leaked out. Top marks to Rohloff for their customer service.
I took the MTB to the Lake District last week on holiday. (aside - no petrol in the Lakes means no cars on the road, a very pleasantly bizarre experience). Still no leaks, but a few missed shifts around gears 4, 5, 6 and 7. I'm going to keep an eye on this, it could just be the severity of the hills. Honister Pass averages 25% with the hairpins steeper than 33% (some cars have to reverse up this). This was a first for me, out of the saddle in 1st gear (19").
If you're interested Rob, I'll bring the MTB to Eastway and you can have a play with it.
cheers